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tyztoy
Deckhand
USA
23 Posts |
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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant
USA
6777 Posts |
 Response Posted - 07/27/2010 : 16:45:49
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This was a pretty crappy week for coast guard activity on Lake Erie.
We jump in to scrub the bottom before races, have jumped in for the same reason he has and go swimming all the time. Never in wind that heavy, but still makes you wonder.
For those newbies out there - Check all doused lines every time prior to putting any motorized propulsion in gear. |
D. Wolff
DPO C25 Hull 401
Currently Sailing "Champagne and Ripple" 1982 O'day 30
Chief Measurer 2002-2006
Vice-commodore 2007 |
Edited by - Champipple on 07/27/2010 19:49:31 |
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islander
Captain
USA
434 Posts |
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tyztoy
Deckhand
USA
23 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/27/2010 : 17:05:33
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Also what was not mentioned was that they did not throw anything to the man. You can see from the picture they could have. One thing I learned from reading forums is the pre sail speach to anyone on the boat. Fire ext, radio, head, emergency procedures, etc. The most important is the man overboard procedure which includes throwing anything that will float and someone pointing to the individual constantly.
You can also see that the swim ladder does not go straight down but rather out. I'm sure that didn't help. The link is to picture.
http://cid-909659c057e87376.photos.live.com/self.aspx/Test/aft.jpg |
Vehite
1984 SR/FK #4212
Port Clinton, OH
Lake Erie
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Edited by - tyztoy on 07/27/2010 17:35:10 |
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bigelowp
Admiral
USA
532 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/27/2010 : 19:04:52
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| Scot -- this has been a pretty bad year for "sudden" squals on western Long Island Sound. My son, who is a sailing instructor, has had several afternoons hearding a fleet of 8-11 year olds off the sound in their Opti's when the weather quickly went sour. He has a very new appreciation for the rapid pace that squals can move. All the way around -- Lake Erie, the Sound or anywhere we ALL must remember that being prpepared is really, really important . . . |
Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Stinkpotter
Admiral
Djibouti
678 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/27/2010 : 19:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by islander
Sunday afternoon we were hit by some bad storms. A sailing student was washed overboard and hasn't been seen since. I had come into port about 1hr before these storm hit. Just a gut feeling.
http://larchmont.patch.com/articles/after-sailing-student-goes-missing-local-sailors-recall-worst-storms-in-recent-history
From the article: quote:
As police efforts turn from search to recovery, Larchmont and New Rochelle sailors and boaters ponder what was and what could have been during Sunday's unexpected squall.
Ah yes, the "unexpected squall"... It was forecast all weekend (and earlier), and I watched on radar as the whole line approached through NW Jersey down through Westchester County until it generated tornado warnings (not just a watch) as it crossed the Sound to Long Island. This did not pop up out of nowhere, and did not arrive without warning! Once again, I'm sorry for the family, but this is one more big-time screw-up! It seems some racers think they're going to be called pansies if they cancel a race, drop out, or decline to participate. That, or they are so focused on the start sequence, the course, and the competition that they never look up... I dunno.
I know the Sonar well--it's a wonderful light-air "family racer" designed by Rowayton's Bruce Kirby specifically for the light summer conditions on Western Long Island Sound, in which it can spank a J-24.
This makes me blow steam out of my ears! |
Dave Bristle
Past member, Chief Curmudgeon, and current Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
DPO of C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing).
  
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
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PCP777
Captain
USA
490 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 07:20:22
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Guys, what I don't understand about the first case is this:
"As he lowered the jib — the large, colorful front sail — a line attached to the sail slipped under the boat and tangled in the propeller, stalling the motor.
Shaw slipped into the water with a knife to cut the line, but was swept away. He was not wearing a life jacket. "
I never let anyone in the water without a life jacket on, period. Even to go swimming. It would have just taken him a couple seconds to put one on or at least tie a cushion to a line to hang on to. Tragic mistake here.
As far as the storms, even here on a lake I always pay close attention to the forecasts. We have a Sonar in our fleet and I agree, very much a light weather boat. |
Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore
USA
2956 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 07:57:25
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| I can't tell from the photo if the sailboat had an inboard engine, but, if so, he couldn't wear a pfd to cut the line, because it would have prevented him from diving under the boat, but he should at least have had a line tying him to the boat. After he went into the water, there was no experienced sailor left on board the boat who would know what to do in case of an emergency. Regardless of whether you're wearing a pfd, a boater should never intentionally leave the boat, while it's unanchored, without being connected to it. |
Steve Milby "Captiva Wind II" C&C 35 Landfall
Past Commodore |
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PCP777
Captain
USA
490 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:10:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby
I can't tell from the photo if the sailboat had an inboard engine, but, if so, he couldn't wear a pfd to cut the line, because it would have prevented him from diving under the boat, but he should at least have had a line tying him to the boat. After he went into the water, there was no experienced sailor left on board the boat who would know what to do in case of an emergency. Regardless of whether you're wearing a pfd, a boater should never intentionally leave the boat, while it's unanchored, without being connected to it.
Look like it does have an inboard but not that far below the waterline. Regardless, there were better options. But we all make mistakes from time to time, so I'm not trying to judge, I just refuse to let people over the side on my boat without a PFD, although many times we flip it over and wear the vests "diaper" style, which I guarantee would sit me low enough to get to that prop. This boat looks about the same size as a C-25.
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Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX
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Stinkpotter
Admiral
Djibouti
678 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby
I can't tell from the photo if the sailboat had an inboard engine, but, if so, he couldn't wear a pfd to cut the line, because it would have prevented him from diving under the boat...
Now that we're talking about two situations...
Lake Erie: All Paceship 26s I've seen have inboards. Nice Canadian-built boats. So he probably had to dive under. When the skipper went over the side, the boat left him--as Steve points out, with no experienced crew. The strong winds, even under bare poles, probably caused the boat to sail away, and power could not be used. A simple call to TowboatUS at the outset would've been prudent--then an anchor if necessary. One more lesson for us all. |
Dave Bristle
Past member, Chief Curmudgeon, and current Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
DPO of C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing).
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
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PCP777
Captain
USA
490 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:46:24
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More detail.....
A 64-year-old Dublin resident who was reported missing on Lake Erie Saturday, July 24, was found dead Monday, July 26.
Gregory Shaw, 7685 Fishel Dr. S., Dublin, was initially reported missing at 1:43 p.m., the Ottawa County Sheriff's Office said in an information release.
The sheriff's office said it received a 9-1-1 call from someone on a sailboat reporting Shaw in the water and that they had lost sight of him in Lake Erie about one mile north of the entrance to the Portage River.
The Ottawa County Sheriff's Office underwater response team and marine patrol, the Port Clinton Police marine patrol, the Port Clinton Fire Department and the U.S. Coast Guard were dispatched to the scene.
A search of the area was conducted by the sheriff's office marine patrol, Port Clinton marine patrol and Coast Guard, by both vessel and helicopter.
According to information from the sheriff's office, Shaw had recently sold his 1981, 26-foot, AMF Paceship sailboat.
Saturday morning, he reportedly took Kelly Russell, 23, of Wooster, and his mother, Elizabeth Russell-Russ, 56, of the same address, out on the boat.
Mr. Russell was identified by the sheriff's office as the nephew of the new owner, who resides out of state.
The trio departed from Shaw's dock at Brand's Marina, 451 W. Lakeshore Dr., the sheriff's office said.
After they entered the lake, they were originally under sail, but because of the increasing wind and waves, Shaw reportedly began lowering the sails.
He had started the engine, intending to return to port under engine power.
While lowering the sail, a line attached to the jib sheet went under the boat and tangled in the shaft and propeller, causing the engine to stall.
Sheriff's deputies reported witnesses said Shaw went into the water with a knife, intending to cut or untangle the line from the propeller. When he did, a large wave separated him from the boat, and a short time later, Russell and Russell-Russ lost sight of him.
The winds were coming south to southwest at 15 to 20 knots, with waves at 3 to 5 feet, according to information from the sheriff's office.
The boat was towed back to port by a commercial towing service to Brand's Marina and removed from the water.
Shaw was found by the Coast Guard at approximately 7 p.m. Ottawa County Sheriff Robert Bratton said.
An autopsy was expected to be performed Tuesday morning, July 27.
Initial reports from investigators indicate Shaw was an experienced sailor and there is no indication at this time that alcohol was involved in the incident. |
Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX
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Stinkpotter
Admiral
Djibouti
678 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 09:28:42
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One more thought: You can imagine Shaw's reaction when the sheet fouled the prop and the engine stalled... Angry with himself, and worst of all, embarrassed. We know what happened next...
Anger rarely helps us, and embarrassment can be our worst enemy, especially in a dicey situation like 15-20 with 4-5' seas, sails down, bow falling off in the wind, and no engine. Time to stop, take a deep breath, lay out the options, consider the risks of each, and then choose. The best way to redeem ourselves from the embarrassment of a "stupid" mistake is to calmly figure out how best to handle the situation. In this case, the best first step might have been dropping anchor.
Now, I'm not always the best at all of this, but a friend of mine is, and I envy (and try to emulate) the way he handles situations. A few people probably owe him their lives, whether they know it or not. |
Dave Bristle
Past member, Chief Curmudgeon, and current Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
DPO of C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing).
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 09:59:54
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When I was younger I could think clearer, but I knew less. Now I know more, but I get tired faster and think slower. I think the best I can do now is practice procedures that might come in handy. We usta keep a big knife on the mast on a Catalina 30. Funny how that knowledge has slipped away on this smaller boat.
How would I clear a fouled prop in a storm?
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:16:32
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Anyhoo.. on my diving vest I keep 2 small dive knives, one with a lanyard that is secured on the vest and easily assessable ( velcro ) should I become entangled. Sounds like a good addition to a life vest for the boat. There are many dive knives that are big and expensive, but I've seen many small ones that come and go on the market that are not that expensive. ( 20 bucks )
http://www.divers-supply.com/Sea-Elite-Voyager-Knife-W-Line-Cutter-Blunt-Tip-P1596.aspx
I use this one with a lanyard to a pocket on the BC and the lanyard is clipped in inside the pocket.
Another one is on the shoulder strap and duck taped in and I change out the duck tape every few years. ( Photographers Gaffers Tape now )
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:31:49
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OK so I've got a 1/2 inch line I'm ready to deploy for a drag line, and I could add one of my extra dive masks and snorkel.
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:59:56
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And these snorkeling vests allow you to go under if you wish, and manually fill with air should you need to stay up. 30 bucks.
http://www.divers-supply.com/Sea-Elite-Snorkel-Vest-Adult-Yellow-P500.aspx
One way to skin a dolphin... I'm just thinkin out loud..
Do you practice the way to pull in your jib without losing your lines??? I do and I teach it, and it matters. As though you were bringing them in under a storm, cause the day will come.
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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ruachwrights
Navigator
USA
142 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 11:31:41
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A squall in a 26' boat is a fairly hazardous condition. Jumping overboard in 3-5 foot seas without a safety line doesn't seem to be the thing that an experienced sailor would do. I wonder if celebratory alcohol may be implicated? Anyway it's a reminder that not much separates bold actions from foolhardy ones.
Vern |
97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA
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PCP777
Captain
USA
490 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:51:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ruachwrights
A squall in a 26' boat is a fairly hazardous condition. Jumping overboard in 3-5 foot seas without a safety line doesn't seem to be the thing that an experienced sailor would do. I wonder if celebratory alcohol may be implicated? Anyway it's a reminder that not much separates bold actions from foolhardy ones.
Vern
"Initial reports from investigators indicate Shaw was an experienced sailor and there is no indication at this time that alcohol was involved in the incident." |
Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX
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Dave5041
Mainsheet Editor
USA
1378 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 19:14:20
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A friend at the marina knew Greg for years and said he was a competent sailor but a personality that wouldn't ask for help and usually wouldn't accept it when offered. Tragic outcomes don't usually come from a single bad decision, but a cascade that starts with one bad decision and poor choices without thinking things through. Any of us, no matter how many times we've made the right choice or been lucky, can be swept up by a tense, fast moving sequence. I imagine there was a lot of tension and fear onboard with non-sailors even before the line fouled that contributed to the cascade. I happened to see the boat in slings before I knew of the loss. The sheet was wrapped on the shaft, looped past the shaft support, and wrapped on the prop.
1. one experienced sailor and 2 non sailors with Erie's short, steep waves running 3-5 and blowing 20 - nobody is going to have a good time
2. no anchor (a reliable source but not confirmed), new owner removed it to clean at home - check your gear
3. KNOW WHERE YOUR LINES ARE BEFORE STARTING THE ENGINE
4. no attempt was made to heave to or sail one mile to the channel - the jib and sheet were stretched tightly over the side - cutting the sheet at the clew would have freed the jib
5. it was an offshore breeze - there was time to regroup and call for aid
4. leaving the boat without the crew knowing what to do, without a safety line, without a pfd at least attached to a safety line to GET UNDER THE STERN OF A BOAT THAT IS LIFTING AND FALLING ON STEEP SEAS
There is usually time or a mechanism to give you time to think through a situation. |
Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Pensacola
Mainsheet General Editor |
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jerlim
Admiral
USA
972 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/28/2010 : 20:02:15
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| Not to pile on...but we were out on Sunday too, and the USCG were regularly broadcasting weather advisories for approaching severe, dangerous conditions (I think they actually said life-threatening, but am unsure). |
Jerry
Whisper
C-25, #1672,'80, SR/SK
S. Jamesport, NY |
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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant
Canada
1595 Posts |
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jbkayaker
Navigator
USA
246 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:31:29
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Here's a sturdy non-folding steel diver's knife for $10
http://www.joediveramerica.com/page/JDA/PROD/knives/KN-116
Wearing a manually inflatable PFD when diving under a boat makes sense to me. I wear one much of the time I am sailing. But I agree that diving under a boat in that situation shouldn't have been undertaken even with the right gear. |
Jim Butler |
Edited by - jbkayaker on 07/29/2010 10:04:34 |
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/30/2010 : 04:22:34
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I've never considered these ( Prop line cutters ) but I imagine boaters in the land of crab and lobster props might give us some insight.
What say ye Dave? Ever caught yourself out draggin a lovely selection of colored buoys?
Might be something else to think about when you order sheets with long tails.
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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redeye
Admiral
987 Posts |
Response Posted - 07/30/2010 : 04:23:07
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Pots.
Lobster Pots.
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Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
'84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
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Experienced sailor makes fatal mistake
